The U.S.V.I and the B.V.I are beautiful Virgin Island "cousins"-- dozens of tropical isles and cays set between the Caribbean and Atlantic near Puerto Rico. Lea covers the the U.S. islands, and Clive McCoy, Tourism Director of the BVI, discusses the delights and must-sees-and-dos of his island country.
The U.S. Virgin Islands boast St. Thomas, St. John and St. Croix; The British Virgins feature Tortola, Virgin Gorda and Jost Van Dyke.
Both groups of Virgins offer gorgeous beaches and watery pleasures, towns with nightlife, mountains vistas, tropical flora and fauna , multicultural history, a laid-back vibe, fresh seafood and -- 'The Painkiller'!
And, of course, Ciive ends the episode with his feel-good memory -- about a hat.
Clive McCoy is Tourism Director of the British Virgin Islands.
Podcast host Lea Lane blogs at forbes.com, has traveled to over 100 countries, written nine books, including Places I Remember, and contributed to many guidebooks.
Contact Lea @lealane on Twitter; PlacesIRememberLeaLane on Insta; on Facebook, it's Places I Remember with Lea Lane. Website: placesirememberlealane.com.
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*This transcript is edited for clarity.
Lea Lane 0:06
Hi, I'm Lea Lane an award-winning travel writer and author of Places I Remember: Tales, Truths, Delights from 100 Countries. On this podcast we share conversations with travelers about fascinating destinations and memorable experiences around the world.
Today we're talking about the Virgins, islands that is, the spectacular American and British Virgin Islands, a group of about 90 small islands, quays and rocks in the West Indies, some 40 to 50 miles east of Puerto Rico. The Virgins extend for about 60 miles in a major channel connecting the Atlantic and the Caribbean. The first people on the islands were the Arawak and Siboney Indians, Christopher Columbus when he discovered them in 1493, named them after St. Ursula and the 11,000 virgins. In the first part of this episode, I'll be talking about the US Virgin Islands, St. Thomas, St. John and St. Croix. I've visited them all over the years and I've returned often for enchanting escapes from the realities of mainland life. And in the second part of the podcast we'll be talking with Clive McCoy, Director of Tourism of the British Virgin Islands. Let's start with the most well known of the US Virgin Island. St. Thomas' capital. Charlotte Amelie, was founded by the Danish in the 1600s and named after the king's wife. It's the most visited port in the Caribbean, and offers visitors elegant dining, nightlife duty free shopping, and even submarine rights. St. Thomas is known for mega yachts and cruise ships moored in the harbor, and high end storefronts with duty free shopping along Main Street. Historic buildings include a 1679 Watchtower called Black Beard's Castle, referring to the area's pirate history. Edward 'Black Beard' Teach, born in 1680 in England, plundered ships traveling to and from American colonies, as well as vessels in the Caribbean. His reign of terror lasted only two years, but he became one of the best known sea robbers in all of history. Also overlooking the harbor is a 17th century Fort Christian, now a local history museum. St. Thomas is a family-friendly island with lots of tourist attractions for kids. At Coral World Ocean Park, you can swim with sea lions and do a sea trek walk along the ocean floor is also an undersea observatory built 27 feet underwater, and the marine gardens gallery of 21 aquariums St Thomas Skyride whisks you more than 500 feet above Charlotte Amelie for some of the most dramatic views in the Caribbean.
You can hike the nature trail and see parrots, goats, ducks, geese and other tropical birds and I love the butterfly garden with colorful species from around the world. Golfers play the gorgeous Tom-Fazio designed 18-hole golf course; the best part is the Devil's Triangle, the spectacular trio of signature holes on the Atlantic Ocean.
Of course there are the super beaches for fishing, snorkeling, water activities, and even a little seclusion. If you snorkel or dive you can spot some of them more than 500 species of fish 40 types of Coral, and hundreds of invertebrates as the sun sets, octopuses, seahorses and moray eels make their appearance. And if you're lucky, you can even witness turtles hatching at one of the many turtle-nesting grounds. Megan's Bay is St Thomas's most popular beach, the protected heartshaped Bay, stretching about a mile and featuring white sand, and sapphire-blue waters. It's super popular of course, and tourists are willing to pay the entry fee to enjoy Megan's charms. So come early or late to avoid crowds, or find your own more secluded beach. To sum up, St. Thomas is the gateway island. So yes, it's more crowded, but there's more to do. And the greatest variety of hotels and restaurants of all the Virgins. A short ferry ride away is the beautiful island of St. John, the smallest of the three US Virgin Islands. It appeals to nature lovers and those of us who seek a peaceful escape. Most of the island's more than 7000 acres is dedicated parkland. And there are more than 20 trails to hike in forest that shelter resident and migratory birds including cuckoos, warblers and hummingbirds. The mangroves at Hurricane Hole in the east, support corals and anemones, and I remember dolphins leaping in the waters and seeing hawksbill and green turtles. Trunk Bay Beach is the ultimate St. John beach with a wide expanse of pristine white sand and azure water marked by a small offshore quay. The gentle surf and reefs around the island make it a great spot for beginning snorkelers, and the marked underwater trail offers a lesson in Sea Life 101; Trunk Bay by the way is named for the leatherback turtles which are endemic to the US VI and are locally known as 'trunks.' You won't find all inclusive resorts or high rises on St John. In fact, this small island only has two traditional resorts and several other basic resort-like accommodations, offering camping and glamping under the stars, Cinnamon Bay Resort and its campgrounds is the most well known. I think the most interesting cultural site on St. John is Annenberg plantation, which was established in the late 1700s by Danish colonists; enslaved workers farmed 1300 acres of sugarcane, and produced 100,000 tons of sugar a year, plus molasses and rum. The plantation and its mill are pretty much in ruins, but parts have been restored and you'll be able to see the enslaved peoples' quarters, their worksites and the guardhouse that prevented them from escaping. All in all, St. John is an uncrowded island with a slow pace and exceptional natural beauty. The largest of the US Virgin Islands, St. Croix, covers 176 square miles with a mix of beaches, rainforests and historical sites. And Point Udall's Millennium monument marks the easternmost point of US territory. I think St. Croix is the most interesting of the US Virgin Islands, and it's the only territory in the new world that's been ruled by seven countries: Spain, Netherlands, England, France, Malta, Denmark and currently the USA. You can feel the influence of these cultures through the architecture the names all around you, and through the multicultural cuisine. What most sets St. Croix apart from the other islands are the two historic towns Fredericksted and Christiansted, originally built to protect the Virgin Islands from piracy. Fort Frederick, also called Frederick's Fort, is the site of a landmark event. In 1848, some 8000 enslaved people marched through the streets of Fredericksted to this fort to demand their freedom. Here you can learn about the Emancipation rally and the triangular trade ship route that ferried enslaved people and goods between Europe, Africa and the New World. Lemon-colored Fort Christiansted there is among the best of Christiansted National Historic Site's, Danish colonial buildings. It's a well preserved stronghold on the waterfront built in the late 1700s. The building is on the grounds of the Christiansted National Historic Site. Exploring takes about 30 minutes, so you'll have plenty of time to check out the rest of the area. You can learn about David Hamilton Jackson, a black educator who campaigned for both workers and civil rights here in the Danish West Indies in the early 1900s. You'll also find the Danish Custom House, the scale house and the Danish West India and Guinea company warehouse. There are other pleasures on St. Croix: St. George village Botanical Gardens occupies an old sugar plantation and Salt River Bay National Park has archaeological sites in the mangroves and coral reefs. Sandy Point is a two-mile beach on the southwestern tip of St. Croix that's nearly 400 acres of natural refuge for leatherback sea turtles. It was a setting for the movie The Shawshank Redemption, which was said to be in Mexico in the movie, but now you know. One of my favorite experiences in St. Croix was visiting Buck Island about a mile and a half off the coast. Managed by the National Park Service, the island is fringed with a barrier reef full of tropical fish and elkhorn coral. Buck Island Reef National Monument is one of only three underwater national monuments in the USA. snorkeling and scuba divers can explore an underwater trail. On land you'll find sub-tropical dry forest trails weave through the island, which are perfect for a post-snorkel stroll or hike and a great way to dry off. There's some lovely resorts on St. Croix and several special restaurants which feature local seafood. And I must add, it's on this island that you'll find the Cruzan rum distillery; and now there's also Mutiny Island vodka, the world's first and only vodka distilled from breadfruit. It's bottled at the distillery. So now you have two great drinking tours to enjoy. Before we hear from Clyde McCoy about the British Virgin Islands, here are a few general facts I dug up about the US Virgins. The islands are a US territory run by an elected governor under the jurisdiction of the President of the United States and residents are American citizens. Yes, people from the Virgin Islands are called Virgin Islanders, but they're mostly identified by their island residents, say Tomian and St. Johnian and Crucian for St. Croix, and Water Islanders. Water Island is a smallest of the four USV islands at just 491 acres. It's also the youngest having been transferred to the local government in December 19, 1996. Passports for US citizens are not required for the US Virgin Islands. But you must be prepared to show evidence of citizenship upon leaving. Citizens of other countries should follow U.S. travel regulations, and you'll need a passport and a visa to enter. Driving can be a challenge here and I'm speaking from experience. Motor vehicles are driven on the left side of the road in both the British and the US Virgins. Although the steering wheels on most cars are located on the left side too, as is the norm for driving on the right. So consider that before you decide to rent a car. The Virgin Islands are beautiful indeed, but they are definitely not the cheapest place to visit. Prices tend to be high for transportation, dining and accommodations, and there are hurricanes. English has been the predominant language since 1917, when the islands were transferred from Denmark to the US, but Spanish is spoken by about a fifth of the population. The islands are becoming more green each year; as an ecological example, you can only use sunscreen containing zinc oxide and titanium dioxide. The only sunscreen ingredients deemed safe by the FDA. So know before you go,
US Virgin Islanders are religious people. And they're also storytelling people. I've heard stories about the jumbies spirits that walk around in homes on the street and anywhere the person telling the story wants them to be. It's lots of fun to hear them. All the islands celebrate carnival, the one in St. Thomas lasts a month. And it kicks off with pageants and calypso shows and really heats up in the last week with hardcore partying. As for local foods, I remember stewed oxtail, beef, goat and chicken. And of course lots of seafood. salt fish as a main dish or used in pates. Side dishes include local rice and peas, yams, fried plantain, sweet potato-- it's a tasty cuisine. As for drinks, beer and rum are local and one super delicious tropical drink I clearly remember is called the Painkiller. It's served in both the US and British Virgin Islands and it's so delicious. I took down the recipe for you: One part cream of coconut, one part orange juice, four parts pineapple juice, rum to taste --be careful here -- and fresh nutmeg. Now I may talk about places I remember, but that is a drink I remember. Okay, we've covered the US Virgin Islands. Let's talk about their close neighbors just to the north and east, the gorgeous British Virgins. Our guest is Clive McCoy, Director of Tourism for the British Virgin Islands. Welcome Clive to Places I Remember.
Clive McCoy 12:42
Thank you for having me, Lea. A pleasure.
Lea Lane 12:45
What a gorgeous voice. So first, let me ask, what would you say are the biggest differences between the US Virgin Islands and the BVI?
Clive McCoy 12:54
Well, the British Virgin Islands and the US, VI, as you mentioned, are distinctly different territories. The British Virgin Islands are a territory of the United Kingdom, whereas the United States Virgin Islands, is a territory of the United States of America. One of the major differences between both territories is that the British Virgin Islands consists of 60 small islands and keys, whereas the United States Virgin Islands is only four. And the population size is a lot less in the British Virgin Islands, we have half the amount of persons that live in the British Virgin Islands compared to the United States Virgin Islands. So those are two key differences. In both territories there are, as you mentioned, cousins, right to the west of us and we love them dearly. And when person is going to visit them, they have the opportunity to take the ferry and come over and visit one of our 60 islands and keys and have some BVI love.
Lea Lane 13:53
Absolutely. It's a wonderful mixture. Can you tell us a bit about the history of the BVI?
Clive McCoy 13:58
Well, the British Virgin Islands were discovered by Christopher Columbus, way back hundreds of years ago. And we we have had a several major countries; we were Spanish at one point. And then as the years went on, we became a territory of the United Kingdom. If you listen to all the names of the islands in the British Virgin Islands, most of them have Spanish names.
Lea Lane 14:24
I love the names. They're wonderful names.
Clive McCoy 14:28
For example, Tortola means Land of the tortoise of Virgin Gorda, and the reason it's called Virgin Gorda is because Christopher Columbus when he first saw the island, he said it looked like a larger lady, a pregnant lady laying on her side. I think, however, that they were on the water for way too long and he was seeing that point.
He gets points on that one.
And then we have Anegada, which is sort of north, which means the Drowned Island and the goddess called the Drowned island because it is the only island in the BVI, that's of coral formation. So it's completely flat. Some parts are actually below sea level, but that island boasts 13 miles of uninterrupted beach. So that's a little bit of the history from back then, of the British Virgin Islands. We continue to cherish that history. Over the years, we have continued to maintain our cultural heritage through our dance and our music,
Lea Lane 15:32
And are there some festivals that you would recommend?
Clive McCoy 15:35
I would recommend our Easter festival on Virgin Gorda. Also our August Festival, which is an emancipation festival in Tortola. That is a major attraction. You want to be in the BVI, the first week of August; then we have several sailing festivals. Our spring regatta next year is going to be our 50th anniversary in the British Virgin Islands. As you know, we are the sailing capital of the world and it's events like that it will solidify our position as the sailing capital of the world. So and then, of course in November, we also have our Anegada lobster fest.
Lea Lane 16:12
Tell us about the lobster that's so famous. And it's so delicious.
Clive McCoy 16:15
Oh, well the lobster on Anegada are absolutely amazing. We have the spiny lobsters; not the ones with the big claws. I love how they keep them close by the dock area where the restaurants are. So they keep them fresh. So pretty much when you order a lobster on Anegada, it goes from the ocean to the grill to your plate. So and as we know, is the best lobster in the region. So the lobster fest that we do every November, we're looking forward to it and actually experienced that.
Lea Lane 16:51
Absolutely. There's also some delicious cracked conch burgers. I've had conch.
Clive McCoy 16:57
Yes, Anegada known for conch made in several different ways; you know, conch soup, conch fritters, grilled -- however you want it, Anegada has it-- and there's actually an attraction called the conch shell mounds that you can sail out to. Over the years when persons have harvested conch on Anegada, they would just throw them in a pile. And through all these years the pile has grown. Now you can go out and you can see the pile, the pile has been around for hundreds of years.
Lea Lane 17:28
Oh my goodness.
Clive McCoy 17:28
And it's an attraction only in the BVI. The story from Anegadians is that you didn't want to discard the conch anywhere close to where you caught the conch, because it would make the other conchs run away, so they would just put them in one area. And that's their story and I'm sticking with it.
Lea Lane 17:50
You're stickin' with it. Okay, let's talk a little bit more about Tortola, which is the largest of the British Virgin Islands. What's not to miss there?
Clive McCoy 17:59
Well, Tortola is the largest island in the BVI. And it's the center of most business activity in the Virgin Islands. So it's a little bit busier. There's a lot more nightlife there in Tortola than all of the other islands. But the thing that makes Tortola so special is that it is in pretty much the center of all the various islands that surround it. And it makes it really easy if you're staying on Tortola to pop over and go to any of the other islands. The only island that's more than 30 minutes to get to by ferry is Anegada, but Jost Van Dyke, Virgin Gorda, all the other islands from Tortola are only 20 to 25 minutes away. So that is one of the special things: Tortola allows you to hop around from island to island very easily. There are museums on Tortola as well, the Government House Museum. There's the old Prison Museum. You know.,
Lea Lane 18:56
There's a wonderful spice collection. I went there once and bought lots of spices.
Clive McCoy 19:00
Of course. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And there's a lot of stores. There's good shopping in Road Town, old Road Town. There's fine shops. We also have the Tortola Pier Park, where we have the cruise ships that come in, and there's excellent shopping there. Excellent dining as well at that facility. And we encourage persons to come to the BVI to actually visit that park.
Lea Lane 19:23
Yeah, I met a very interesting artists named Joseph Hodge. Is he still around?
Clive McCoy 19:28
Yes, Joseph Hodge is still there; he is based in an area called Crafts Alive, and you can still go there, and you can purchase some of his paintings, his artwork. So you know BVI in total only has a population of about 25,000. But it is such a cosmopolitan type environment. We have people from all over the world. So you mix that with some of the BVI culture and you get a wonderful feel to the destination.
Lea Lane 19:56
Well, you have a tall mountain, Mount Sage, and you can hike up that, a wonderful contrast to your beaches. So you have both.
Clive McCoy 20:03
Of course, it's the highest point on Tortola. It's a national park and for all your hiking enthusiasts, that is one of the places that I highly recommend going to do, other hiking tours that have developed over the years that were very well attended -- as a Pineapple Tour, where you can go to a pineapple field through one of the areas of Brewers Bay; and of course, the beaches on Tortola unbelievable Cane Garden Bay, a must-see experience and also Smuggler's Cove.
Lea Lane 20:34
They just sound so good. There's great diving there. I know there's shipwreck diving.
Clive McCoy 20:41
Well the BVI has been for many years rated as the number one wreck diving destination in the region, because we we have some great wrecks. One of the more popular wrecks that we have is called the wreck of the Roan, which is off of Stark Island. And the wreck of the Roan is an old English steamer that sunk there hundreds of years ago and it's coral encrusted, but you can still see portions of it, like the rib of the boat, and it has great history. As I said it is a national park and there's other dive sites there. There's a sunken airplane. We still have a restaurant, a floating restaurant called the Woolie T. It's over by Norman island right now. But we lost the one during the storm, and they safely sunk the old ones.
You can eat underwater?
No, if you could you will have it there.
Lea Lane 21:38
Yeah, well, that sounds fantastic. To now mentioned another place that I love. It's Virgin Gorda. It's a very famous place for one spectacular reason which everybody knows about the bath. Tell us about the bath?
Clive McCoy 21:52
Well, you're so correct. I always say Virgin Gorda is the champagne of the British Virgin Islands. It's absolutely beautiful. It's always ranked as one of the top three most beautiful islands in the Caribbean. And of course, the Baths. It's a bowl formation, that is on a beach in Virgin Gorda.. And you can crawl through these boulders and there's wonderful sea pools and grottoes, I've heard many stories about how the Baths were formed. I like to tell people, they tend to give an idea of what it looks like. Imagine if we had 1000 foot giants and the boulders were Legos and they would just make caves on the beach. That is exactly what it looks like. And they made it for persons to go through it. It's an absolutely stunning scene. It's one of the can't-miss attractions in the British Virgin Islands. It amazes me every time I go there, you know, how wonderful it is. And I've seen it all my life.
Lea Lane 22:55
Little pools, You go behind some of these boulders, you're all by yourself in a pool with these rocks. It reminds me of the granite rocks on the beaches of the Seychelle islands.
Clive McCoy 23:05
Yes, it does mimic them, however I think the boulders are interesting. They're bigger and you can walk through them and there's an area that we call the cathedral. And the reason why we call it the cathedral is because the boulders shoot up hundreds of feet. And it has a cathedral feel inside of it. Especially when the sun is up. The sun peeks through the boulders into the water so you can get an idea of what that looks like.
Lea Lane 23:33
Is there a time of day you recommend?
Clive McCoy 23:37
You get the sunlight coming through the Cathedral on about 10, 11 in the day, when the sun is directly overhead you'll you'll get that sunlight coming in. Absolutely wonderful.
Lea Lane 23:49
Well, I love the name of the fourth main island of the BVI: Jost Van Dyke or Yost.
Clive McCoy 23:57
Both are correct; we know what you mean. Jost Van Dyke was a Dutch pirate that inhabited that island many years ago. That island is actually the third most popular place in the world for New Year's Eve. A lot of people don't know that.
Lea Lane 24:17
All right, what are the first two?
Clive McCoy 24:19
The first two: Times Square in New York. The second is Trafalgar Square. Okay and why is this third or fourth thing for us? Because it's the British Virgin Islands The most beautiful destination! But what it's known for is its New Year's party in the area called Great Harbor, by a gentleman by the name of Foxie's. His name is Foxie's, and have you heard of Foxie's bar and grill? It's a very popular bar.
Soggy Dollar is on the other side, but they're not responsible for the New Year's party. Foxie's is on the Great Harbor side. So people go there and they line up their boats in the harbor. and they just have a great time with Foxie's. There's just a tradition now that people come there for New Year's Eve.
Lea Lane 25:05
What I would imagine would be a very big deal. And it sounds like the most fun of all the three. I would take that over Time Square and Trafalgar Square.
Clive McCoy 25:13
Yeah. So yes, Jost Van Dyck is. You know, it's also the home of the Painkiller.
Lea Lane 25:18
Yes, I mentioned the Painkiller earlier. I know they have it from it came from Jost Van Dyke, right, But you can have it at both islands.
Clive McCoy 25:26
They've all incorporated it. You can have it anywhere in the Virgin Islands, it's pretty much on most restaurant's menu. It's such a popular drink within the BVI, but it originated on Jost Van Dyke. I've even seen it on the menu here in certain places in Miami, a popular drink. So
Lea Lane 25:46
You forgot the nutmeg?
Clive McCoy 25:49
Lea Lane 25:50
I already gave the recipe because I guess everybody's gonna want to try that. It is a Painkiller. Wow, this sounds so delicious in every way. And there's so much to see and do, but Clive if you have only a week, would you set up a perfect trip for us? How would you figure out the timing on this. You'd start maybe in Tortola,
Clive McCoy 26:09
If I had a week in the British Virgin Islands, I would want to see as many of the islands as possible. And that's not hard to do. Because all the islands are very close to each other, we like to say that you can have breakfast on one island, lunch, on another and dinner on another. And the reason you can do that is because our hands are so close together. So I'll give you two options for great weekend in the British Virgin Islands. One of them is you can charter a yacht with a captain and a cook on it. And you can sail around to the various different islands and experience the different vibe each island has: the most relaxed pace of Virgin Gorda, the romantic feel of Virgin Gorda. And you have the party-feel in Jost Van Dyke with all the bars and restaurants. And then you can wind up to Anegada and have some lobster, so that's that way. You're traveling in your hotel to the various different islands, okay. But if you don't want to do that, you can stay on Tortola. And you can catch the ferry and go and visit all the various islands as well. Ferries run daily in the British Virgin Islands, for the most part to the different islands. And if you're there for a week, you'll certainly be able to do that. So that is the perfect week in the British Virgin Islands, being able to go from island to island or you can just find one of the islands that you like, and just relax on one of our wonderful beaches that more than likely you will be the only one there. So it's a destination that offers a lot. It's a destination and offers a little -- depends on what you want to do.
Lea Lane 27:48
It has something for anyone who wants to go to paradise. Well, the name of the podcast is Places I Remember. So Clive, please share a special memory of your beautiful British Virgin Islands.
Clive McCoy 28:00
Well, I have so many memories. But I'll give you one that always sticks out in my mind. When I started working for the British Virgin Islands, we do this thing called fam trips. And what it means is we take persons in the travel trade to the British Virgin Islands to experience the destination. Okay, we were on one of those big Safari buses with some travel agents in the north sound area. I don't know if you notice Safari buses, they're big open-air buses. We were there with the travel agents that we were showing off the BVI to, and we had had one or two pain killers. And we were heading from north zone into Spanish town to go visit another hotel on Virgin water. And while we were driving, the wind picked up and it took the hat of one of the travel agents off her head and it just went into the bushes. And you know we were having a good time. She didn't care about the hat. We will just do just thrilled. About 10 minutes later, we hear a car behind us honking their horn. So we thought it was something happened to the bus. So we stopped. And the gentleman came out of the car and gave her back her hat. And that happened and showed us and showed the challenges and showed everyone that it was there that type of people that are in the British Virgin Islands. And people in the British Virgin Islands are beautiful people, people that care about others. And he didn't know who this hat belonged to. He doesn't know that he had to get the hat back to the lady because it was the right thing to do. And that's the thing that makes the British Virgin Islands special. Yes, we have the beaches. Yes, we have all of these different islands that you can go to. And each island has a different vibe. But it's the people of the British Virgin Islands that make the destination what it is. And I'm so happy to be able to share that story.
Lea Lane 29:47
Oh, thank you so much. It's beautiful. As I've said before, so many times the special memories involve people and good people, so it's lovely to hear it. So whether you traveled to the American Virgins or the British Virgins, you'll find fun and sun and beaches and histories and wonderful people and spectacular beauty. So why not mix and match them? Both groups. It's a perfect place to get away. Thank you Clive McCoy for talking.
Clive McCoy 30:13
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it anytime.
Lea Lane 30:16
Okay, can't wait to get back to the Virgins. My book Places I Remember: Tales, Truths, Delights from 100 countries, is available in print, Kindle, and I read the audio version. You can follow me on forbes.com where I write five travel posts a month. Please subscribe to this podcast and consider giving us a review. And I'd love to hear from you on any of my links in the episodes show notes or on my website placesIrememberLeaLane.com Until next time, make some travel memories